Poll 3-18-16 Have I gone too far, or not far enough?

James.k.Polk wrote:I also read American Gods, and I won't spoiler it for you. I also read it without a lot of knowledge of the backgrounds of the inspiration of it all.

When you're done I'd like to know what you thought of it all.

I'll do that

I also read American Gods, and I won't spoiler it for you. I also read it without a lot of knowledge of the backgrounds of the inspiration of it all.

When you're done I'd like to know what you thought of it all.

NebulaJack wrote:

Sgt. Rock is great stuff. Have you read the graphic novel that Azzarello did a few years back?

I almost bought it, but backed out. I'm so used to digital now, I prefer it. I renewed my Marvel Unlimited subscription. So I'm about 6 months behind the current runs but I get access to so many titles I wouldn't buy. On the DC side I'll spring for a few comics a year, when they have a sale, or there is just something I really want to read. I have boxes of old comics stored in the garage still after giving half of the ones I collected to my daughter. I told her if none of the boys take an interest she can have the other half one day.

I did finally find some time to start American Gods. It's different but I'm digging it. I went in with little info on what it's about, so there was nothing spoiled for me. I'll let you know what I thought about it when I finish.

Patch wrote:

NebulaJack wrote:

My approach to college would be a different one than what Sanders is talking about. First off, I feel that 18 years old is too young for most US kids to go to college, especially on the heels of 12 years in mandatory schooling. I'd rather see it encouraged for kids to wait until 21 before returning to school. During the intervening 3 years, I think it'd be great if we had a national works program, where kids were doing things like fixing roads, improving local parks, cleaning up highway litter, installing new street signs and cross walk signals etc. Every hour worked would build towards a credit system where they'd have money subtracted from their college tuition. In addition to that, they'd get a minimum wage for their time. After 3 years, a kid could start attending college while also continuing to work, or opt to take a lump sum in cash if they're not wanting to go onto college.

I don't think there's such a thing as a free lunch.

I actually like that approach. I could see people not afraid of work, taking advantage of it. Would it work for those who want the "Free College"? Hell no. They want something for nothing. That is the mindset.

Here is my "Easy" story. When I was probably 9 or 10 (best estimate) I read a Sgt. Rock and Easy company, comic. In the comic they had a new guy join the company and they set about various tasks during the war. Each time Rock would tell him the plan, new guy would say this way would be easier. Rock would say this is the "Easy" way. Then Easy company would go about the hardest way of doing the mission. Everyone survived, mission accomplished. At the end he realized the Rock's Easy way, while harder was the right way. So when people tell me this is easy, I see if there is more reward in doing it the hard way. I told my kids that story years ago, so they know when I say it's easy, its probably more like Rock's version of easy.

Sgt. Rock is great stuff. Have you read the graphic novel that Azzarello did a few years back? Also, I figure that Rock's way is "easier to live with" because he got everybody through the mission alive. That's one of my approaches when I'm faced with a choice. For example, when I took some time off from work while I was sick, I pondered "what's worse, living with the guilt of taking a sick day, or living with the symptoms of a getting sicker."

NebulaJack wrote:

My approach to college would be a different one than what Sanders is talking about. First off, I feel that 18 years old is too young for most US kids to go to college, especially on the heels of 12 years in mandatory schooling. I'd rather see it encouraged for kids to wait until 21 before returning to school. During the intervening 3 years, I think it'd be great if we had a national works program, where kids were doing things like fixing roads, improving local parks, cleaning up highway litter, installing new street signs and cross walk signals etc. Every hour worked would build towards a credit system where they'd have money subtracted from their college tuition. In addition to that, they'd get a minimum wage for their time. After 3 years, a kid could start attending college while also continuing to work, or opt to take a lump sum in cash if they're not wanting to go onto college.

I don't think there's such a thing as a free lunch.

I actually like that approach. I could see people not afraid of work, taking advantage of it. Would it work for those who want the "Free College"? Hell no. They want something for nothing. That is the mindset.

Here is my "Easy" story. When I was probably 9 or 10 (best estimate) I read a Sgt. Rock and Easy company, comic. In the comic they had a new guy join the company and they set about various tasks during the war. Each time Rock would tell him the plan, new guy would say this way would be easier. Rock would say this is the "Easy" way. Then Easy company would go about the hardest way of doing the mission. Everyone survived, mission accomplished. At the end he realized the Rock's Easy way, while harder was the right way. So when people tell me this is easy, I see if there is more reward in doing it the hard way. I told my kids that story years ago, so they know when I say it's easy, its probably more like Rock's version of easy.

Patch wrote:

While we are on the subject of Bernie, do you really support the idea of socialism in the US?

The socialist thing isn't why I'd vote for Bernie. All I expect from a President is damage control, basically keeping things from getting worse. Of the 1 party candidates in the running, I think he'd do the best job of it. I don't buy into the idea that he'd be able to accomplish nearly half the goals he's spoken of. At best he'd be able to keep corporate power from getting worse than other presidents would. This view is part of why I'm not disappointed in Obama like so many of my friends were/are. I never had high expectations for him, I just thought he'd be a better choice than Hillary.

Patch wrote:
Well easy wasn't my style. (I do have a geeky story about the word "Easy" that I wont bore you with here, but I think of it every time I someone tells me to do it the easy way)

I'd actually love to hear that story. Also, the details of your life's struggle were great to hear.

Patch wrote:
If the goverment socializes businesses. Limits their profits, to hand out to those not willing to work for it, how is that going to work long term? Do you really think that Apple,or Ford, won't fold up shop and move? Do you really think a country like Mexico, wouldn't welcome them with open arms? Whats the next step, a goverment phone. You get a G-phone 1. If you want an Apple 14s you have to pay a 150% import tax, also it won't work on our state run phone system.

While I don't think Sanders would actually be able to achieve that, I'll agree that if he did there would be negative consequences if he did. The most I think he'd be able to achieve would be closing corporate tax loopholes and reigning in the amount of money that big business gets away with funneling out of the economy through offshore tax shelters.

Patch wrote:
Free college? We already know what that looks like, public schools. Do you really think that professors are going to take a 50% pay cut?  They won't. It will just make a second tier of education. That free degree will carry the same weight as a HS diploma. The rich will still send their kids to Harvard, and the poor will just add to our debt. This in turn will make the HS diploma useless, so that people will be forced into free college at the taxpayers expense.

My approach to college would be a different one than what Sanders is talking about. First off, I feel that 18 years old is too young for most US kids to go to college, especially on the heels of 12 years in mandatory schooling. I'd rather see it encouraged for kids to wait until 21 before returning to school. During the intervening 3 years, I think it'd be great if we had a national works program, where kids were doing things like fixing roads, improving local parks, cleaning up highway litter, installing new street signs and cross walk signals etc. Every hour worked would build towards a credit system where they'd have money subtracted from their college tuition. In addition to that, they'd get a minimum wage for their time. After 3 years, a kid could start attending college while also continuing to work, or opt to take a lump sum in cash if they're not wanting to go onto college.

I don't think there's such a thing as a free lunch.

Patch wrote:
Here is an interesting article from Forbes about socialism in America.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/10/25/european-socialism-why-america-doesnt-want-it/#3d29ae363aca

I'll have to read that later in the day, but when I do I'll get back to you on it.

NebulaJack wrote:

With the majority of my facebook friends being Sanders supporters, I actually do hear it about Hilary... all the fucking time. I'm not remotely enthused for her, but I'm getting sick of hearing about her latest BS.

Exactly. You hear a mention when it happens but then nothing after. Unfortunately the Democrats had their nominee before it even started. Bernie could have inspired younger people to vote, just as Obama did. I don't think Hillary will be able to.

This morning George Snuffleupagus acted shocked, when Trump asked the same question I'm asking. At what point do the protesters get some of this blame? They are shutting down highways.

While we are on the subject of Bernie, do you really support the idea of socialism in the US?

Maybe its the age difference, but I grew up believing that you could be anything you wanted, as long as you willing to work for it. Now I know that's not exactly true. But in the sense, you can have more if you want and are willing to put in the work. It applied to me. I can't imagine not earning my own way in the world. Not to say there are not circumstances where taking help, like food stamps, or unemployment might not come up, but the mind set of it being owned to me just doesn't fit with how I lived my life.

I grew up poor. We had a horse ranch, not Bonanza, more like, Little house on the prairie. Lots of hard work. I was breaking horses at 13. Cleaning stalls much younger than that. We ate beans and bread most nights. I went to work at 15 at other barns. I would work 3 different barns a day after school. Since my step dad drank any profits we made, most of my earnings went to groceries. At 16, I learned to lay flooring, so summers were spent working that job. I could make between 400 and 700 a week, which was a ton of money for a kid in the 80's. I would save it all summer so I would only have to work our barn during the school year.
My step dad and I had come to blows many times. Staying there when I graduated, wasn't an option. So I rented a trailer in a trailer park. I went to a community college and paid cash to sign up for my first semester. All the cash I had. Of course there were additional charges I couldn't pay for. So I had to make a decision. school loans, crippling debt, and balancing work to have a roof over my head, or making my own way in the world.

I was well read, and maybe naive but I truly believed a man could get by on his wits and hard work. So my college education ended. I went to work. I believed I would succeed, but I knew it would take hard work, and a little luck. Some of which I made for myself.

I bounced around from job to job for about a year. My diet consisted of eggs more often than not, because you buy 12 meals for under a dollar. I ate eggs in every way they could be eaten. Electricity was a luxury, so I did without it most of the time. Then I started to see opportunities, that others missed. People get complacence in the work force. They stop looking for a chance to advance. I didn't.
I was working for pipe company, owned by Chevron. They needed someone to move some pipe and asked if I could drive a fork lift. I told them yes, even though I had never even sat on one. I got on and lied, making an excuse about how the controls were different from the one I had used before. This earned me a quick run through of the controls. Within 6 months I was running the shipping dept. I was the youngest foreman in all of Chevron at 19.

When the job played out, I moved to another. I would find out the best paying position at the job, then look for ways into that job. When my kids came along I had secured the highest paying job at the steel mill. I was damn good at my job, but the job sucked. I lucked into a job in GPS when I broke my ankle. I couldn't drive my Cat with a cast, and needed to feed my family, so I took a job installing GPS systems in the mid 90's. . From there I asked about servicing the units after they were done. It was something they hadn't considered so they accepted. I would work 12 hrs at the steel mill, then go service units after.

My wife left me during this time cleaning out my bank account and leaving me the kids.

At that point everyone said the same thing. You have a good paying job at the steel mill, you have insurance, you have kids to raise. No one has even heard of GPS, It's easiest to stay there. Well easy wasn't my style. (I do have a geeky story about the word "Easy" that I wont bore you with here, but I think of it every time I someone tells me to do it the easy way)

I quit the steel mill and went to work at a start up GPS company. It failed, but while it was running I made plenty of cash. Once it folded, I lived off my savings and looked for opportunities. I got on with another GPS company, but I jumped ship to one of their install companies. I started at the bottom, but once again, people get complacent. I started taking on duties of everyone that would offer. The install manager made me his right hand. He gave me more and more of his workload, until he was sitting by the pool all day and I was doing his job. The boss noticed and he was let go. The service manager made the same mistake. Giving me all of his work on top of my new roll. Soon enough, he was let go and I was running both sides of the business. Maybe I should have felt bad about them losing their job, but I didn't. They set out to take advantage of me. I used that to my advantage.

Along the way it was never easy, but things worth having rarely are.

Now I'm thinking about starting my own business. It's risky but I believe., if I do it, it will be successful. It may not be anything like what I picture it today. It could be anything. That's the opportunity we have here.

If the goverment socializes businesses. Limits their profits, to hand out to those not willing to work for it, how is that going to work long term? Do you really think that Apple,or Ford, won't fold up shop and move? Do you really think a country like Mexico, wouldn't welcome them with open arms? Whats the next step, a goverment phone. You get a G-phone 1. If you want an Apple 14s you have to pay a 150% import tax, also it won't work on our state run phone system.

Free college? We already know what that looks like, public schools. Do you really think that professors are going to take a 50% pay cut? They won't. It will just make a second tier of education. That free degree will carry the same weight as a HS diploma. The rich will still send their kids to Harvard, and the poor will just add to our debt. This in turn will make the HS diploma useless, so that people will be forced into free college at the taxpayers expense.

Here is an interesting article from Forbes about socialism in America.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/10/25/european-socialism-why-america-doesnt-want-it/#3d29ae363aca

Patch wrote:

Because he's Trump it hangs over him like a cloud. Since then, Hillary has stepped on her dick at least 4 times, and has had change what she meant, but you don't hear any of that being held against her.

With the majority of my facebook friends being Sanders supporters, I actually do hear it about Hilary... all the fucking time. I'm not remotely enthused for her, but I'm getting sick of hearing about her latest BS.

Patch wrote:
I have made it clear, I don't think Trump will be a good president. I just think that the fact that the democrats and republicans, are both hell bent on preventing it from happening, is a glimpse down the rabbit hole of supposed party politics. They are united in their own cause and we are being used to that purpose. It's been that way since the 60's. You tell me, is that what you think this country was founded on?
If Trump fucks up their plans for 4 year, I'm okay with that.

It's the bullshit with trying to skunk Trump and Sanders that I'm trying to set up a 3rd party debate in Eugene this summer. I'm tired of the media pretending that there's only two choices.

NebulaJack wrote:

I included the KKK stuff, because Trump declined to disavow David Duke in an interview. I suspect it's because he knows that White Supremacists are supporting him and he doesn't want to turn them off. Kind of like Sarah Palin not being willing to answer whether or not people who bomb abortion clinics or kill doctors are terrorists. She didn't want to alienate far right fringe groups.


Whether he likes it or not, Donnie Trump has become an icon to a lot of hateful assholes (and not all of his supporters fall into that category by the way) because he has a talent for appealing to the lowest common denominator. The fact that he's encouraged violence against protestors is very bleak and frightening.

I don't buy it. It's media spin. I saw the interview. When they mentioned Duke, you could see the confusion on Trump's face. Like he knew the name but couldn't recall who the guy was, probably because you haven't heard him mentioned in a decade. He came right back and made it clear he didn't want his support. Because he's Trump it hangs over him like a cloud. Since then, Hillary has stepped on her dick at least 4 times, and has had change what she meant, but you don't hear any of that being held against her.

As far as the fights breaking out, it takes two. It's easy to say it was a Trump supporter that started it, and that's what you will hear regardless. Are you telling it was a Trump supporter that rushed the stage, or sent white powder to Trumps son, saying that if his son doesn't drop out, the next one will be real? I bet you a dollar if Trump dropped today, you would see this same violence at a Cruz rally within a month, you won't see it at Hillary's because as much as the media would like to paint republicans as redneck racists, the majority are law abiding people who would never think of rioting. While the democrats feed of the supposed unfair treatment of minorities and the poor. When in reality, we have had a democratic president for 8 years, and race relations are worse, police relations are worse, our debt is worse.

I learned along time ago that you can't change peoples opinions when it comes to politics. I respect you and your opinions, I think you are smart and probably see there there is more here than meets the eye.

I have made it clear, I don't think Trump will be a good president. I just think that the fact that the democrats and republicans, are both hell bent on preventing it from happening, is a glimpse down the rabbit hole of supposed party politics. They are united in their own cause and we are being used to that purpose. It's been that way since the 60's. You tell me, is that what you think this country was founded on?
If Trump fucks up their plans for 4 year, I'm okay with that.

Patch wrote:I'm not sure how far you wanted to go. I would say the KKK stuff might be too far. I don't think trump supports the KKK. I don't even think he is a racist. I think he is easily labeled as one because he want's to close our southern border.
In reality I don't see that happening. I do think illegal immigration need to be addressed at some point. Even if you make everyone here a citizen, which I am for doing, if you don't stop the flow, this country will eventually be unable to sustain the numbers.

I included the KKK stuff, because Trump declined to disavow David Duke in an interview. I suspect it's because he knows that White Supremacists are supporting him and he doesn't want to turn them off. Kind of like Sarah Palin not being willing to answer whether or not people who bomb abortion clinics or kill doctors are terrorists. She didn't want to alienate far right fringe groups.

Patch wrote:
I'm all for 12 million new tax payers helping carry the load. Do you think they will feel the same way when 12 million more replace them that don't pay taxes? Eventually the system won't be able to support itself. We already drown in debt. o you give those 12 million the pass and 12 million more take their place. That will have a major impact on the job market, housing, wages, insurance, it's just not possible to keep up.

I tend to think of the idea of "build a wall" as something to keep us in, rather than other people out. As for illegals, I don't think Trumps much worse or better on the issue than others. He's just using it as a wedge to appeal to people who want something to get done. It'll likely be his equivalent to Gitmo.

Patch wrote:
Keeping out Syrian refugees, until they are properly screened. Is that really unreasonable? I don't think everyone of them is a radical, but you are kidding yourself if you believe the radicals, won't try and take advantage of it. We have a big heart in this country, but don't fool yourself. These radicals do not. They don't think, act, believe, or understand our way of life. They only want to end it. If you get bit by a rabid dog, you don't keep feeding it. We have been bit more than once.

The policies that Trump's talked about with refugees and terrorist scare the fuck out've me, because it's the kind of thing that helps them gain recruits. I think they know and understand our culture incredibly well, they just don't agree with it. They've been mounting an effective strategy of slowly bankrupting the US through increased military spending, and it's been working for about 15 or 16 years now. Trump or Clinton would increase the problem there.

Whether he likes it or not, Donnie Trump has become an icon to a lot of hateful assholes (and not all of his supporters fall into that category by the way) because he has a talent for appealing to the lowest common denominator. The fact that he's encouraged violence against protestors is very bleak and frightening.

I'm not sure how far you wanted to go. I would say the KKK stuff might be too far. I don't think trump supports the KKK. I don't even think he is a racist. I think he is easily labeled as one because he want's to close our southern border.
In reality I don't see that happening. I do think illegal immigration need to be addressed at some point. Even if you make everyone here a citizen, which I am for doing, if you don't stop the flow, this country will eventually be unable to sustain the numbers.

I'm all for 12 million new tax payers helping carry the load. Do you think they will feel the same way when 12 million more replace them that don't pay taxes? Eventually the system won't be able to support itself. We already drown in debt. o you give those 12 million the pass and 12 million more take their place. That will have a major impact on the job market, housing, wages, insurance, it's just not possible to keep up.

Keeping out Syrian refugees, until they are properly screened. Is that really unreasonable? I don't think everyone of them is a radical, but you are kidding yourself if you believe the radicals, won't try and take advantage of it. We have a big heart in this country, but don't fool yourself. These radicals do not. They don't think, act, believe, or understand our way of life. They only want to end it. If you get bit by a rabid dog, you don't keep feeding it. We have been bit more than once.